Unpacked with Ron Harvey: Navigating Leadership Dynamics and Trust Building in Remote Work Environments
Speaker 1:
Welcome to Unpacked Podcast with your host, leadership consultant, Ron Harvey of Global Core Strategies and Consulting.
Ron's delighted to have you join us as he unpacks and shares his leadership experience designed to help you in your leadership journey. Ron believes that leadership is the fundamental driver towards making a difference.
So now, to find out more of what it means to unpack leadership, here's your host, Ron Harvey.
Ron Harvey:
Good morning. This is Ron Harvey. I'm the Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of Global Core Strategies and Consulting. We are a leadership firm based out of Columbia, South Carolina, and we spend all of our time, quite honestly, around helping leaders develop the skill sets, the emotional intelligence of being able to create a workforce or a culture that people want to be a part of.
How do you take care of your team, especially in today's world where it is very challenging with so many things happening, five generations in the workforce, how do we help leaders be really, really good at taking care of people? And so, we love that and enjoy that.
My wife and I both retired military, Army, and so we wanted to find a way to do something that we learned through the military to give back to leaders and corporations of nonprofits, educational systems, and the gamut goes on. But what we always do is we started a podcast really just to let you hear from leaders that talk real about what the challenges are, what success stories are, what are they thinking, and what are they seeing across the landscape in about 20 minutes. So hopefully you hang on with us for about 20 minutes, have a good time, enjoy the podcast and tell other people about it.
And so, with that being said, I'm excited to have Greg with us. He's joining us out of Detroit. So excited to have you and thank you for saying yes to the podcast.
Greg Williams:
Thank you very much. I'm excited to be here today.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. So I'm going to give Greg an opportunity just to anything you want to share, what you do, who you are, a little background. So always I never introduce people and read a bio. So if you follow my podcast, you know I never read bios. I let people share what they wish, and I don't like long bios myself, but I send them because it's protocol, but I ask people not to read them. So I practice that on this podcast. So Greg, I'm going to hand the microphone to you.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, thank you. Born and raised in the Detroit area of Michigan, actually near Alpaniac and spent most of my life here. I have been working in the software business since I got out of college and ERP software, which is accounting, finance, inventory control type of software. And I've been at Western Computer for 15 years and I've had a number of different roles there as project manager, consultant, and the last 10 years in different management roles and now I'm a vice president there.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. Well, thank you for taking time out of your schedule, and I know it's hectic and it's busy, so I always respect time when someone steps off. And it's good to have someone in an executive position that comes on and talks about you've come up through the ranks throughout the organization, been in the industry for a while, and we talk about leadership and the challenges. You're sitting in a VP's role. Can you think of... For a second, unpack briefly for us, when you first went into the industry and where you are now, have you seen the landscape of leadership change over time?
Greg Williams:
Yes, I believe I have. One of the things I've seen is less leadership over time because, in my opinion, there's not the loyalty between companies and employees that there used to be.
Growing up in Detroit area, people would get a job at General Motors or Ford and work there for life and they'd retire and that would be it. And nowadays, you have people switching jobs all the time. And I think that some people are able to get leadership skills through that because they get more opportunities. But in other cases, I think people lose out on an ability to build the deep relationships needed to become leaders.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. I'm glad you said that, Greg, because I talk about it all the time. If people follow us or follow this podcast or read any books that we have out there or we've even served them, I talk all the time about the value of relationships. And so when you speak to, "Hey, do you lose?" No. So the world is moving. Those days of people hunkering down for 40 years, it's probably not realistic anymore for any corporation to think that someone's going to stay that long.
With that being said, how do you recommend that, if people are changing, that's the world we live in today from job to job, they don't stay 40 years. How do people at your level as a VP still build relationships even though you don't know if they're going to be there two years or 20 years? How do we work on it at your level to build relationships with people in our companies?
Greg Williams:
Well, you have to make an effort to do it. It's not just natural like it used to be. It doesn't just naturally happen over time because you're hanging out by the water cooler or having a beer after work, because now we all work remotely anyways, so you have to make an effort to build relationships with people.
Ron Harvey:
Thank you so much. So when you think about it, Greg, we are working remotely. How do leaders stay connected being that we are remote? Used to be a time where everybody was in the office. We had these major buildings. You went from one chair at your house to the chair in the office building doing the same job, and we said we couldn't get it done. We've proven that we can get it done. But there has been a struggle or a challenge to stay connected in this remote world. What have you practiced or what have you seen leaders doing to stay connected in this virtual world?
Greg Williams:
What I do personally is I take time to connect with people in a phone call or an online meeting and just chat a little bit about other things outside of work. I think that's really important. We get this mindset that because we're on a Zoom call or a Teams meeting, has to be all business. And I see nothing wrong with in a meeting like that to have five or 10 minutes of just catching up on personal stuff with the group and telling some jokes and things like that. That helps quite a bit.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. And I'm glad you're saying it because we do show up sometimes it's, hey, we got 10 minutes in this meeting and it's all business, and we off to the next meeting, which has been a challenge because now we can do 10 or 15 meetings where before we can only do two or three meetings because so much travel and commuting took up that time. But now we'll go right from meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting without reflecting and being connected.
So if you're listening and you're watching, don't lose the opportunity to be connected, even though it's virtual. You look at Greg, we talked a little bit before we started this podcast where he's at, where I'm at, what I do, and you want to make sure... I think the analogy I use for most people, Greg, is it's like having a cell phone and how strong is your signal? If you don't have a strong signal, you can have the best phone in the world, there's no transfer of data. And I think that's true in leadership. You got to have a good connection with your people or there's no transfer of development or even goals and vision. So staying connected is really, really important.
What are some challenges that you're noticing with us being able to take care of the workforce now that we're virtual?
Greg Williams:
Well, where do I start?
Ron Harvey:
Yeah, there's a ton of....
Greg Williams:
Yeah, there's a lot of them. I think making sure that people are getting what they need to do their job. I don't think that many people are inherently lazy. They have remote work. But if they don't have anything to do or they have a blocker that stops them from being able to start on a task, they can waste a lot of time. And they can't just walk in the next office and ask a quick question. So creating a space where people can either have self-service access to the resources they need or feel like they can reach out to somebody and ask them for help without, quote, unquote, "bothering them" is a very important culture to have.
Ron Harvey:
Wow. Go ahead, Greg. You're good. You're dropping some good nuggets. Hopefully y'all are jotting this down because this is real. How do you make sure that you're providing what your workforce needs, which is a space? They can't walk next door and get the feedback they normally will get in a space. So Greg is dropping some things that are super important. So if you're listening, I hope you're documenting and taking notes.
Go ahead, Greg.
Greg Williams:
So there's a few things. One is to be very conscious of your manners when you're speaking to people over messaging apps or email. Hello, good morning, please and thank you, all the things that your grandmother taught you.
Ron Harvey:
Yes.
Greg Williams:
You pull out those manners because these are impersonal communication methods and things can be taken the wrong way. I know it's a small thing, but starting every email with hello, hope you had a good weekend, and then get into what you need is everything. Because you wouldn't just walk up to someone at the water cooler and say, "I need that report now." You would say, "Hey, how you doing? Can I get that report?" So do the same thing over email and messaging apps and a lot of people don't.
Ron Harvey:
Yeah, I love it, Greg. In my head, as you're talking, the business before the business and the business has to be the person. So I love it. Go back to the manners. I feel as though we've gotten away from this thing of being kind and it's appropriate to be kind in the workforce. It's almost as though because you pay people, you got deadlines, short deadlines and demands that you forget that it's important to be kind so you can meet your objectives a lot sooner. So I love the idea of the business before the business, be kind. Start there. And especially in this communication where you're not in front of them, it goes sideways really fast.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, exactly.
Ron Harvey:
One word will disengage an employee really quick.
Greg Williams:
Yep. And there's another thing we do is we assign every new employee a buddy that's a peer typically in their department, but maybe not, maybe a complimentary department. And they go to them for all the unofficial questions. How do I do this? How do I do that? Things that aren't in the SOPs. And so, that's worked well for us too, to make people feel more comfortable as we onboard them.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. Someone that you can go to that doesn't make it feel like you're incompetent and looking at you like, why don't you know that? Because oftentimes you come on board, you don't want to be the new employee asking stuff that they think you should know or they hope that you didn't know, and it puts you in an awkward position. And you'll spend months just trying to figure it out on your own because it's not safe enough to ask. So it sounds like you've created a space where it's safe enough to ask this person whatever you need to ask so you can get on board properly and you can be a part of the team a little quicker.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. And then, finally, have fun in your meetings. We use Teams with the online chat going through our meetings and Beesler posting memes of jokes, and they're trying to outdo each other of who can come up with the funniest meme during the meeting. And we have fun with that as well.
Ron Harvey:
Yes. And you're hearing this from the VP, so please, please, as you're listening here, get over yourself. You can have fun regardless of your title. Sometimes we let titles get in the way of being human. So if you're listening to this, don't take yourself so serious in every meeting that you can't relax and have fun and let people see that there's a lighter side to you. And we're not saying it's a trade-off for you being professional or for you getting results, but you'll be amazed, if you could create an environment where you can have fun and you can laugh, that people get to relax and it's not so serious and tense all the time.
Greg Williams:
Yes. And I've seen even executives at large companies that we consult for, they appreciate that as well.
Ron Harvey:
Yes. People want to relax. I don't want to be in a tense environment all the time. I'm sure there are moments for it, but I don't want it to be every day, all day because this is a part of it sounds like, how much have you guys at your level begin to pay attention to mental health wellness? It's a big topic. People talking about it. We're paying more attention and we're more respectful of it. How are you doing when it comes to taking care of the mental health for even at your level as a VP? How do you do it well?
Greg Williams:
I'm not an expert in this area, and I probably have something to learn here. I think one of the things that we watch out for, especially with our HR department, is making sure that people aren't overworking. If you see people logged in and working every night, all weekend, check in on them. And that's something in the consulting business that we've watched for years. We used to watch if people were traveling every week in a row. If you got up to six weeks in a row, it's like, "Hey, this guy's got to get off the road. Otherwise, he's going to burn out." Because when people burn out is when you start to see the unprofessional behaviors.
Ron Harvey:
Yes. Yeah. I love that you're paying attention to six weeks on the road, either burn out or not home enough, and you may have marital problems and people don't want to talk about that because, at some point, you don't want the other parent to be almost like a single parent even though they're married because the spouse is traveling so much. And you're looking at like, I love that you're talking about [inaudible 00:12:24], like we look at [inaudible 00:12:25]. Are you responding at two a.m. in the morning and are you doing it on Fridays and Saturdays and Sundays, and you never really do the work-life integration is what I call it? Are you working... Because it's easy to get stuck behind this computer and do 10 meetings in one day because you don't have to travel anymore.
Greg Williams:
Yes. It's really interesting that you said that. When the pandemic first happened, I read a business article with the CEO of Ford here in Detroit, and he said he had people, they all sent them home from the office and everyone thought, oh, well, when you're home, you can attend all the meetings and they're a global operation. They had people on meetings at two a.m. with China and five a.m. with people in France and so on. They were all burning out doing way too many meetings.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. And because that's what it meant. It is like, hey, well you are available all the time. And at least when we were in person, they know you couldn't make every meeting. So it was almost like they understood it better. But now it's like, hey, all you got to do is jump off one meeting and jump into another.
I'll tell everyone that's listening, you actually need time from meeting to meeting, build it in, bake it in, and don't go back to back with meetings. I know sometimes it's not possible, but most times it is possible for you to have a 10 or 15, 20 minute break in between meetings. And I think we're just bumping them right behind each other and not having any dead space on our calendars. So I'll tell you, as a leader, I even have to say, "Hey, when's the next one?" And I build that in so you can go get some water, you can refresh, you can go walk, you can stand up, you can do something other than sit in that chair from eight o'clock in the morning to eight o'clock at night. That becomes very unhealthy.
Greg Williams:
I'm a big fan of the 45-minute meeting. But then you get the 15-minute break in between meetings.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, intentionally building in 45 minutes so people don't expect you to be that hour, which is important.
Greg Williams:
Yep.
Ron Harvey:
Can you share, as a VP and of someone that's looking at getting promoted or someone that's interested in executive level leadership, I hear this word a lot, executive presence. It's never really explained well across the board, but when you think about it, for someone that's interested, what does it look like or sound like? What do we mean when we say executive presence? What's the expectation?
Greg Williams:
Personally, I think it's a few things. I think one is effectively listening. It's being decisive and thoughtful at the same time. And it's also, if you don't have the answer, it's okay to say, "I don't know, and I'll have to get back to you." That's okay too. But you want to be... Listen, have a thoughtful answer, be decisive. Those are the executive qualities that I would look for.
Ron Harvey:
Yes. Listening is huge, thoughtful and decisive. But you also said something that's important because oftentimes, I know I'm a veteran, and you go up in the ranks, it was almost the higher you went, they expected you to have all the answers. That was a part of the culture. The higher you go, "What do you mean you don't know? You've got 10 years in the business in the position, what do you mean you don't know?" And I had to re-accept my mind that nobody knows all the answers. It's not humanly possible.
So when you're an executive and you're going up there, it's important to understand and for leaders that are here to create a culture where that's okay to say, "I don't know," and then go find someone to help figure it out. So is that something that for you in your role, that you have to create that space where the leaders or your subordinates can actually say, "Hey, I don't know," without getting destroyed?
Greg Williams:
Yeah, I think that's fine. For me, it would be the opposite. I would rather someone say, "I don't know," than bluff their way through an answer and get us in trouble.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. Because that's exactly what happens. They'll say, then they'll run, let me go figure this out. I just told Greg I knew the answer, and now they're out there running down everybody and chasing everybody. So at least if you tell me what you don't know, I can help you figure it out, or at least I can put you in the right direction.
It gives me a chance to mentor or coach and educate you. So when you say, "I don't know," it used to be seen as a sign of weakness. I have to say that. There was a time in our society where saying, "I don't know," probably would not get you on the promotion list for sure. And it definitely wouldn't put you in the seat of people who had a lot of confidence in your competence. So that's not who we are today, and we're watching this change. And as evolution changes, it's okay to say, "I don't know."
Now, you can't stay that way forever. You're going to have to do professional development. You're going to have to get into some courses or get with a mentor or get with someone or sponsor to help you learn it. So that's important.
Here's my other question. How important has mentoring or having a coach meant to you and your success? Coming from where you started until now you're in a VP role, what role did mentoring or coaching play in that for you?
Greg Williams:
Oh, it was huge. I had a few people earlier in my career that trusted me with a lot of responsibility and answered my questions and helped me. And it really helped to get access to those business owners and executives at a young age and see what they do and how they answer things and support them. When they would be in a meeting and say, "I don't know," or "I have to get back to you," I would immediately, without being asked, just go back and get that answer for them and bring it to them the next day. That's what really helped me to learn this business.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. Sitting in the rooms like a flower on the wall and they're like, if I can have access to what's really happening in real time when you're not the one that's actually on the hot seat is a great place to learn. And that's what mentors and coaches, sponsors actually do. They'll give you access to the big screen to see and learn on their watch, which is really, really important.
So in the workforce today, you mentioned another word. You're giving me great things to unpack with you. You mentioned the word trust. And right now, data shows that trust is at an all-time low across all industries from leaders to workforce. How do we begin to build the trust back in the workforce between management, executives, organizations? How do we build this back because it's deteriorating really, really fast?
Greg Williams:
I don't have a great answer there. We don't struggle with that, and I haven't struggled with that. I've seen some old school leaders really struggle with it, and I'm not sure where it's coming from. To me, you can judge people by their results and if they're hitting all their numbers and they take Friday afternoon off, who cares? That's the way I look at things. But some leaders don't. I've noticed there's a lot of people that have had a real hard time with this, with people not returning to the office and wanting to watch the employees and what they're doing. And personally, I don't get it.
Ron Harvey:
Yeah, I'm super excited to hear, "You know what, Ron, I actually do well in this space, so I don't have to worry about that." So you've done some things really, really well to build trust. Can you share with the group what are some of the practices, because that's a phenomenal thing to hear, but I would love to hear the recipe. What have you actually done over time that builds trust and you've been very successful at it?
Greg Williams:
Well, we've been doing it a long time. We were fully remote 12, 15 years ago.
Ron Harvey:
Wow.
Greg Williams:
It really took a culture of managing people by the results. It did take a lot of effort of connecting with people. I think you have to make an effort to turn the cameras on, get to see people, tell some jokes. We do company-wide happy hours that are very popular, and we've even hired a DJ to host trivia nights online and stuff like that.
Those are some of the things we've done to build a community and it's been really, really popular with our people. I'm sure there's lots of other ideas, but I think it comes down to just trusting everybody. You have to give them the benefit of the doubt upfront.
Ron Harvey:
Absolutely.
Greg Williams:
Assume they're going to be productive and work the hours and then when you do have issues, address them immediately. Because if you don't address performance issues immediately, then it's not fair to the other employees that are putting the work in.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. I love that you said give them the benefit of the doubt. And a lot of leaders are coming in as though someone's not going to do it right. They're not going to show up, they're not going to follow through. And we teach this course, and I tell leaders, I say, leaders earn the workforce trust in them, but they automatically extend it to their team immediately.
So when you show up as a VP, you trust your team until they give you a reason not to, and then you address that immediately, but you're going to earn all your trust. They're going to say, "We're going to see what you're going to do, Ron." That's just a part of leadership. There's no way around that quite honestly. Once you get picked, you don't know if they had a bad leader before you or a phenomenal leader, whatever, but they're watching to see can they trust you? And you got to earn it.
And some leaders struggle with that. Why do I have to earn it? I'm sorry. You're the leader. That's the part of the role. And you just got to embrace that so you don't fight it all the time. And I love that you're saying you used the word community, and I haven't heard you talk about employees. So it's amazing that the way that you're talking and speaking is this is a team, we're all in it together, and it's a community. And you're doing things to make people feel like they're part of the bigger picture of the organization. Is that something that the company does all the time?
Greg Williams:
I like to talk about team members. The word I hate the most is resources. I refuse to use it. People are people and they're team members, and we're all on the team doing this together. That's the way that I like to look at things. And it's not just jargon for me, it's real. I've always hated that term resources.
Ron Harvey:
Yes. Yeah. Because it sees people as an item versus these are human beings that we're dealing with that have lives. And it's important... For every leader that's listening, the people that are in your organization, someone sees them as a hero or a shero. Someone sees them as a role model or a mentor. So make sure that you take care of the workforce, the people that are getting things done for you. Greg, you guys have been doing remote work, you said over 15 years?
Greg Williams:
Yes.
Ron Harvey:
Fully remote. That's amazing. Because most of us have only been doing it since COVID. What drove that? Are there any secrets to that success? Because not everybody does it well. Now, let me be real. Every job can't be remote. We get that.
Greg Williams:
Right.
Ron Harvey:
There's some jobs you've got to be in, but not every job has to be in the office. And we're proving that. And sometimes we don't want to let go of our old behaviors, our old ways or looking over your shoulder. As long as you're at your desk, I know what you're doing. Every job doesn't need to be in the office nine to five, Monday through Friday. That's reality.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. We're very fortunate that we have a job that's very easy to do remotely, and it works very well for that. For example, I know that IBM, for example, they went fully remote years ago as well for a lot of their consulting members. Because in the past, before the pandemic, our people were on the road a lot of the time anyways. And when they're not on the road, the last thing they want to do is go to an office. They want to be home. So it worked really well for us anyways. And the main thing it did for us was the ability to hire talent based upon their skillset and not where they live.
Ron Harvey:
Yes.
Greg Williams:
It was huge.
Ron Harvey:
Open up your pipeline. Yes.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. And now I think other businesses are realizing that and they're like, "Hey, I can get a really good accountant that lives in Louisville, Kentucky, even though my office is in New York."
Ron Harvey:
Yes. Yes. So if you're stuck on they got to be in the office, you limit your potential that you can hire.
Greg Williams:
Exactly.
Ron Harvey:
Yeah. And so, you want to be mindful of boxing yourself in because now you've got talent globally. And that's what we've learned to do as well. On our team, we've got people in about five different states. And the reality is it allows us to accommodate them, let them live the life they wish to live while they help us deliver to our clients regardless of where they are.
If we got to fly them in, we will. But the reality is they get to have this thing called work-life integration. Before, I think what used to happen is everything that we talked about, we built our life around our job. That's not reality anymore. Jobs are important, so I'm not misspeaking about that, but people want to build the job around their life now.
I want to be Ron, but I also want to be successful as a business owner. I want to be successful as an executive leader, but I also want my family to feel just as important. Before it was almost those things were if you had time. So that's changed for us drastically.
As we begin to wrap it up, as you think about your career and how successful you've been in it, are there any clues to success that you would leave with the people that are listening that want to be an executive leader?
Greg Williams:
I would say work hard, be approachable, listen and learn are probably the biggest things.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. I love that you said approachable, which prompted a question for me. Have you ever received feedback on there, Greg, that didn't feel well in a leadership role, and you still had to show up very positive? If so, how did you do it? Because sometimes feedback don't feel well, but as a leader, when you get it, you still got to show up approachable and not angry and not frustrated.
Greg Williams:
I've gotten lots of feedback over the years, especially when I was first learning how to do presentations and stand in front of a group. I would get feedback from our sales team because they want to close that deal. They'll give you brutal feedback.
Ron Harvey:
You're messing up their numbers, Greg.
Greg Williams:
Exactly. Yeah. So that's probably where I got the best feedback is, "Hey, you over explained in this area. You were too sharp to answer there, too quick. You weren't patient enough." I used to get that feedback all the time because I used to be a very impatient person that had to answer right away.
And what I learned was to take a quick little note as to what I wanted to answer, and then five minutes later in the conversation, I would say, "Hey, Mr. customer, you said something very interesting back then, and I want to address that."
Ron Harvey:
Yes.
Greg Williams:
And that's probably the biggest tool I've learned, and I try to pass it on to some of the people that I work with.
Ron Harvey:
Yes.
Greg Williams:
Because it shows to the person that you're meeting with that you're listening.
Ron Harvey:
Yes.
Greg Williams:
And in five minutes later, you're listening so well that you brought it back up again to make sure that you covered that question.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. Greg has used the word listen probably about five times in our podcast. It is the best skillset that a leader can have with being approachable and taking care of people. Be authentic, have fun. But listening allows you... Because people want to be heard. So if you're here and you're with Greg and I still, get really, really good at listening authentically and finding a way to respond and not make it about you. That is so huge. Because most of us, we don't listen well. We listen long enough to get the answer we want so we can do what we want.
I'm telling you, I'm guilty of it. I'm like, "I heard what I heard enough. Here's what we're going to do going forward." That is not the most effective way. Full transparency, listening is a hard but very, very valuable skill.
So Greg, is there anything you want to leave with the audience? If someone wanted to contact you, reach out to you, are you on LinkedIn? Someone wanted to ask more questions about leadership and if they're going into an executive role, is it okay for people to reach out to you on LinkedIn?
Greg Williams:
Yeah, I'd love to. You can reach out to me at Greg Williams at Western Computer on LinkedIn. I think it's pretty easy to find.
Ron Harvey:
Yes.
Greg Williams:
And I think it's LinkedIn.com/gwill. Also, if you want to learn more about our company, you can go to Westerncomputer.com and there's more information there.
Ron Harvey:
Yes, yes. And I hope that you do reach out because you'll be amazed of the relationships matter. So I'm super excited that you're on. You are very transparent. You had a good time and you shared your journey and where you are now.
Everyone that's listening, relationships matter. Don't burn any bridges. Make sure that you take care of the people that's in front of you. So again, this is Ron Harvey hanging out with Greg Williams from Detroit sharing with us his leadership journey as a vice president in the organization.
If you ever need either one of us, you can find both of us on LinkedIn. We'd love to answer questions. We'd love to pour back into you and help you become effective at what you want to do as leaders in your organizations.
So until next time, Greg and I will sign off and we hope that we added value to make a difference for you on your journey in leadership. Thank you, and everyone, we're going to sign off.
Speaker 1:
Well, we hope you enjoy this edition of Unpacked Podcast with leadership consultant Ron Harvey. Remember to join us every Monday as Ron unpacks sound advice, providing real answers for real leadership challenges.
Until next time, remember to add value and make a difference where you are for the people you serve. Because people always matter.